Open Spaces: When was there last a viable university in Afghanistan?

Wahab: There has been some kind of education taking place, especially in the cities, all along. Kabul University, which was founded in 1932, was a pretty good university a few decades earlier and has stayed open. It was open even during the Taliban when I went there and visited two years ago; only men attended during the Taliban. And the same for primary and secondary schools on a limited basis for boys only. So higher educational institutions, whether they were universities, polytechnics or pedagogic institutes, which are basically teacher training institutions, have been open all along, but there was a question of standards, academic honesty, the quality of instruction, ideology, etc. These were highly problematic to say the least. Now, that there is a semblance of stability, peace, quiet and security and some kind of government, everything has to be restarted. Education at all levels, health care, agriculture, transport, communication, you name it. But education is perhaps the least developed of all sectors. For example, right now about 30% of the primary school age population is enrolled in school--30% at best, and mostly boys.

OS: This is the current situation?

W: That is right. Only about 4 or 5 % of the primary school age girls, about 12% of the secondary school age population and perhaps 2% of the tertiary school age population is enrolled in school, so this gives you an idea about the challenge that lies ahead. We try to reconstitute, rebuild institutions and the challenge is unbelievable to an American. For example, providing everything from classrooms, faculty, chairs, books, dormitories, running water, electricity, even clothing for certain students and faculty. Many faculty and students cannot even afford proper clothing right now. We had to actually ask certain agencies to give us some material or cash so we could buy clothing for the university faculty. It's a major challenge throughout the country.

OS: What kind of curriculum is trying to be built within the university?

W: Well, higher education was actually inspired by three separate forces. Americans, Russians, Eastern Europeans and the Western Europeans. For example, there have been American universities like Purdue, Indiana, the University of Wyoming, Teacher's College, Columbia University, that have been affiliated with certain colleges and universities in Afghanistan working on the curriculum, faculty development, research, etc. TCCU made a major contribution to the entire education system from the 1960s to the early 70s.

OS: And that was up until?

W: Well, up until 1974-75 actually. I worked with the Teacher's College, Columbia University team for a while in the late 60s. So the legacy of the US involvement remains. And then of course, the Russians were very instrumental in the 80s, establishing all kinds of what they called polytechnics and pedagogic institutes. The curriculum was very much Russian oriented, which is to say, very little liberal arts--mostly the hard sciences, physical sciences and technical education. And then there were universities and high schools affiliated with European institutions--German, French, and British--where the curriculum was very mush inspired by the European countries and their educational systems. So the curriculum is sort of hybrid and hodgepodge of all kinds of influences, east, west, and even some Indian influence and Japanese. But if you look at a typical curriculum at the tertiary level, it's not all that different from an American curriculum, minus the liberal arts, except students have to take the two official national languages, Afghan history, and also religious studies.

OS: The two languages being?

W: Pashto and Dari, both are national official languages. Dari is a version of the Persian language.

OS: Are these the languages of the two major groups?

W: Yes, they represent the languages of the two major groups, that is Pashtoons and Tajiks; but also in Afghanistan, these are both official and national.

OS: For how long has this been the case?

W: That has been the case all along. Pashto, of course, is the language of the dominant Pashtoons, who believe they're about 60% of the population. Dari is the language of the Tajiks, who are about 20% of the population. But there are also, as you know, other ethnic minorities in Afghanistan, such as the Turkmans, Uzbeks, Pashaees, Hazaras, Nuristanis and so forth. But there is very little provision made for those other languages except during the time of the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan from 1978-1992 when other languages were also given recognition; for example in primary schooling, radio, government, journalism, and so forth. But in Afghanistan, to get anyplace you need to know Dari and Pashto. Especially Dari because even though Pashto is the language of the majority, Dari is the language of the elite--government, business, universities and so forth.

OS: On that subject, what do you think is the future of English, because there is now so much American influence? English has always been the language of the elite in India, for instance.

W: Yes, the same in Afghanistan. English teaching starts in 7th grade. In some cases it starts even earlier, although there are a few schools which teach French and German. There used to be Russian too, of course. Russian used to be very popular, but now it is English. If you know English you can make a very good living and probably go overseas. Because there are thousands of foreigners, the International Security Assistance Force, the American Forces, all of the NGOs (non-governmental organizations), the UN people and the embassies, everyone needs someone to interpret, and the most common language of course is the English language. It's very hot and marketable.

OS: How much of the educational system is controlled by religious leaders?

W: Very little in the formal education system. Although in the countryside, religion has a great hold on the people, and the mullahs have a lot of power. But not the Taliban. They're gone. Just the regular religious mullahs, the priests, who have a tremendous amount of power. In the village, for example, when I raised the issue of education for girls with some people, they said, "Don't talk about it." When will it be where the girls in my village get literacy or leave the village? I have no idea. And this is because of the mullahs. So religion is a very powerful force in people's lives and people are very afraid of the mullahs. It was very interesting when they were discussing whether or not to add the word "Islamic" to the name of the country. People said, "No." The majority went against it because many pointed out that horrible crimes have been committed in the name of Islam--by Muslims against Muslims and so you don't want to bring that back in. But throughout the country the mullahs and the jihadis still have a lot of power. For example the head of the radio and TV refuses to allow women to sing or

OS: Are they an integral part of the educational system?

W: In the madrasas, mosques-the unofficial system-yes, but not in the public education system. Islam and religion are part of the culture. Heresy or blasphemy are one of the worst crimes. You could be stoned and killed, if you're accused of or especially if there's any kind of proof that you've insulted Islam. People will kill you. No questions asked. The Supreme Court just bared Dr. Sima Samar, former minister of women's affairs, from public office for an alleged insult to Islam in Canada.

OS: And how are the mullahs educated?

W: Through the religious schools, madrasas, in mosques, in Pakistan or Iran, or just by themselves. Actually quite a few of them are very poorly educated, even in religious matters. But they are the ones who lead the prayers and give you names and preside over funerals, engagements, etc. For some reason, they just have a lot of power. You do what the mullah says.

OS: While we're on the subject of education, the American press and the Western press in general, I would suppose, have certainly made the liberation of women the great feature of recent events. And we've seen pictures of girls in school where they had not been before. You've mentioned the very small percentage of children, and girls especially, attending school. What measures are being taken to develop changes?

W: Well, things have changed of course. If you go to Afghanistan now it's quite different in many ways from the situation, say, eight months ago. You can hear music in the streets now, if you're in cars you can play cassette tapes; and you see a few women who are not wearing the veil. But if you go to Kabul right now I would say that 97% of the women still wear the veil. Even people who work in the Ministry, go to the university or high schools, for example, or work in offices. And by the same token, about 95 % of the men wear beards. So, although things have been loosened, people are still very careful. Women, I'm afraid, will have quite a struggle ahead of them for quite some time. For example, there are three woman in the 28 member cabinet. The one woman, Sima Samar, who was the Women's Affairs Minister in the Interim administration was chased out after being accused of heresy and not a good Muslim. She denies it, but she was chased out because she was rather strong and quite outspoken. In fact, she was indicted by the Supreme Court, but the charges were later dismissed. The point I'm trying to make is that although things have changed for women now somewhat, and you do see a lot of girls, especially in the cities, going to school, they are still covered. And you see more women at work and in the streets. For example, take the Ministry of Education with 265 employees. There were zero women employees there eight months ago and now there are about 45 or 50. So opportunities have been opened but women have to be very, very careful because they're really afraid of resurgent assaults, sexism, kidnapping, misogyny and so forth.

OS: And you're citing of the example of Sima Samar and the reaction against her as an example?

W: Yes. She was pushing women's rights in every place, every forum and on all occasions including the National Assembly that just took place; and she also finger-pointed at some warlords, war criminals, the "Jihadis"-- the Mujahaddin, the people who fought the Russians from 1970 until 1992 for their crimes against Afghans, women and property. She was elected as vice chair of the 1,650-member Grand Assembly. She is now head of the Afghan Human Rights Commission.

OS: She's the woman who was present at President Bush's State of the Union address?

W: Yes. I met her twice, as I said. She's very eloquent, with strong feelings and views and she was planning to establish women's issues departments in every one of the 32 provinces. She named names and she confronted the warlords at the loya jirga and other assemblies for their atrocities against women from 1992-96. And in Kabul there are more than strong rumors of renewed assaults on women. My niece, who is 20 years old but in eighth grade because her schooling was interrupted, has to wear the chadori and is escorted as soon as she leaves the house all the way to the school and then back in Kabul! Women are still grossly underrepresented in all walks of life. They have a difficult time and very difficult lives.

OS: How do you reach out to people who live outside of Kabul to bring them into the educational system?

W: Life is very hard and complicated, you know. There really is no centralized, credible, legitimate, effective government as we speak. This government was conceived, put together, and is being funded, supported and protected from outside. It's common knowledge. No one knew Mr. Hamid Karzai eight months ago, and now he's the president. Everyone knows this; and in Kabul, if it were not for the International Security Assistance Force, there would be absolute chaos. It would be the same old story--random crime, butchery, kidnapping, civil war and so forth. There is very little sign of government in Kabul itself and as soon as you leave Kabul there is almost no government. It's a fact for example that much of the country is still controlled by warlords--warlords who may help the Americans and the central government, or warlords who are sort of freelancers. What is being done to help the country? Most of the work that is being done, whether it is health care, education, agriculture or resettlement of displaced people or refugees is being done by the NGOs. There are an estimated 260 NGOs operating in the country, and if it weren't for them a lot of people would be starving, or dying from simple diseases.

OS: Are most of these international NGOs?

W: Yes. There are Afghan NGOs too, but most are international like CARE, the World Food Program, Project Hope, Mercy Corps, or Japanese, German, or Arab NGOs. There are people from all over the world and they in a sense have been a de facto government for two decades. Then, in terms of education, UNICEF and UNESCO have been there all along even during the Taliban. The limited schooling right now is just a skeleton of schooling because of dilapidated facilities in the few schools that do exist. There are not enough teachers or textbooks; the teachers are poorly trained and underqualified; there are no facilities, chairs, paper or pencils. I went to the school in my village, the school that I went to as a child. It's an old school but still not recognized by the government as an official school, and I would say that about ten percent of the kids have no shoes. There were very few textbooks. The pupils were all sitting on the floor. Half the children and teachers were not there because there is no incentive. The teachers have not been paid yet.

OS: I was wondering, I know of schools with facilities that we certainly would consider substandard, but certainly schooling was going on.

W: But there was very little schooling because of irregular attendance in classes that meet for only a few hours per day. There aren't enough textbooks, and the textbooks that were printed by UNICEF through Nebraska University, the teachers and the students don't quite understand them. They complained about these textbooks. It was pretty bad. And kids were malnourished, hungry, not having shoes or proper clothing, especially when it is cold.

OS: What was the complaint about the textbooks?

W: That they were too complicated, which I think tells you something about the qualifications of the writers and teachers or the lack thereof. And the teachers had not been paid yet, and this was the third month of the school year, so I gave them some money to distribute among themselves.

OS: You're talking about in your village.

W: Yes, but it was much the same even in Kabul. Because the schools were one target of the Muhajaddin throughout the years that they fought the Russians; schools along with hospitals, irrigation projects, government offices, power stations, water supplies, anything that had anything to do with government was a target, everywhere, in the cities and throughout the country. So most school buildings like Kabul University itself, had been pretty much destroyed or damaged severely.

OS: You stayed on and were there during the loya jirga?

W: The first day only, but I followed it very closely. S: My understanding is that it was an old institution that was reassembled to give some legitimacy to this current regime. Was it effective in doing just that, in providing legitimacy?

W: Yes and no. Remember, Afghanistan is a very stratified society. Power, money and guns and having a lot of men have always mattered. If you had wealth, either land, animals, cash or whatever, you were by definition also the chief, the notable. And so historically when there were either parliaments or this loya jirga from time to time they were never actually democratic--representative of the people, per se. This time it was slightly better because there were elections, two rounds of elections for the loya jirga which were monitored in many cases by a commission and observers. But even in this loya jirga, many members complained about being manipulated, also being used as a rubber stamp for decisions already made. People complained about the presence of the warlords right in the tent of the loya jirga. Of criminals, butchers, murderers and rapists for example. People complained about money being spent as bribes all over the country. I think about eight nominees were assassinated during the election process. People were intimidated here and there in the country. So it was questionable in many ways and many voiced these problems. And people complained about the fact that the loya jirga was to prove the government and the cabinet, select the president and the parliament. Only the president was elected during the loya jirga. And that's why there was a lot of disappointment. It was very interesting to listen to those people as they spoke up and spoke very freely about being deceived and being manipulated. But the fact that it took place, and the fact that people stayed there for eight days in the same tent, in the same dormitory and didn't kill each other--this is considered to be an accomplishment, in and of itself. The Pashtuns have been very, very unhappy all along--before, during and after the loya jirga. Because they feel they have not received their fair share of the power, the positions, the recognition and the glory and they complain about the Panisheris clique of the Tajik minority having disproportionate power. This is true, because if you look at the breakdown of the 37-member transitional government there are 15 Pashtoons, 11 Tajiks, 11 others for example. That is not exactly quite representative of the demographics.

OS: So those are the old loyalties and animosities at work?

W: Yes, and that is likely to continue and lead to renewed civil-sectarian war.

OS: Among the refugees, Pashtoons are the vast majority, in part because they are in the south and they had the opportunity to easily cross the border.

W: But also that is where a lot of the fighting during the Russian invasion took place. Someday I hope someone will write an accurate history of what went on. Mostly it was the Pashtoons who did most of the fighting against the Russians and their local allies the PQPA and who did most of the dying. In the south and southeast, vast numbers of them just went across the border for safety, especially the children, women and older people. A lot of people crossed into Iran. At one point there were four million refugees in Pakistan and in Iran. There are still about four million Afghan refugees outside the country. It may be a million are displaced internally. It is the largest number of refugees and displaced people in the world, even as we speak. Ironically the UNHCR is saying, "Don't return too fast because we are not ready for you." And there's real no government; yet the drought has been going on for three years; people have lost their property, animals and land; there is nothing to return to. But in the first six months of this year a million refugees have returned, and they were expecting maybe less than half a million or so. More people are returning and it's a big problem and Kabul is under tremendous pressure. Kabul has all the problems of New Delhi, Mexico City, Calcutta or any big city and yet it is a city of only two million people. It's crowded, polluted, divided and it's expensive; there are people all over the place and there are shortages, diseases, crime and so forth.

OS: Housing?

W: Housing especially is a big problem. Because the foreigners, the rich and professional Afghan returnees have taken all the houses there were to take. There is little or no construction or rebuilding going on.

OS: Many were destroyed during the war?

W: Yes, Kabul was about half destroyed. And it was destroyed by the Mujahaddin, the people we supported for more than a decade. And they were confronted in the loya jirga, "You are the ones who killed 60,000 people and destroyed Kabul. You should account for your crimes." And people asked for War Crimes Tribunals and pointed fingers. It was quite remarkable; especially what the women had to say. They cried for peace, reconciliation, democracy and development and an end to death and destruction.

OS: What would you like to see happen in Afghanistan?

W: Well, I would like to see the US-Allied bombing stop. The country is being bombed as we speak, and a lot of innocent people have been killed. People are killed, maimed and terrorized; property is destroyed; nature is being denatured. I would like that to stop. Extend the International Security Systems Force throughout the country. Restore peace, law and order, democracy, and ethnic reconciliation. I'd like the foreign assistance, the $4.6 billion that was promised, to flow in. So far only $110 million has been donated. I would like quick reconstruction and balanced economic development; and I would like the foreigners to leave. I would like for the Afghans to become self-sufficient, self-reliant, and manage their own affairs. And all of the foreign occupying military forces to leave.

OS: On what kind of timetable?

W: Oh, the situation doesn't look very good at all. As you know the deadly bombing continues, there is again real fighting in the north between the forces of Rashid Destam, the Uzbek warlord and deputy defense minister and Ata, a Tajik and Mr. Fahim, the minister of defense people. There is renewed crime, banditry, rape, etc. in the north even against aid workers. There are provinces where the central government can't even go, because the governor warlord says, "Don't come and don't bother us. Don't even bring education." There are rocket attacks on the Americans and the ISAF even in Kabul. So things don't look very good. The Pashtuns are very unhappy and are persecuted in the north. There is speculation that there are still remnants of Al Queda and Taliban, dispersed of course, but hiding and just waiting. A very powerful and apt comment is that if the central government and their foreign sponsors, like the UN, the Americans and so forth continue to marginalize the Pashtun majority a civil war would resume as soon as these foreigners leave the country. That is one scenario. But the other is, as you have heard, the Americans say they might be staying at least for another year. The Turks are replacing the British in the ISAF. There is need for a peacekeeping force, but it has to be international and it has to be extended throughout the country. Ethnic cleansing against Pashtoons must end. Human rights must be restored. I would just like to see the people having food, housing, healthcare, education, work, peace, security and democracy. But we have to remember the larger US agenda, and that is the domination and occupation of all Central Asia. Because of the oil and gas and money to be made. You know the Pipeline Agreement was signed between Karzai and President Niyazov of Turkmenistan and Musharraf of Pakistan. That pipeline project will connect Turkmenistan with Pakistan through Afghanistan, and is supposed to begin this fall. That investment and enormous pool needs to be protected. And it probably will be expanded and extended. So I think there is a larger agenda and I don't see the United States leaving anytime soon. In fact there is every indication that they are building permanent bases in Khandahar, in Bagram, but also in Uzbekistan, Kyrgystan, Tajikistan and Pakistan.

OS: What supported the people before--during the time of the king?

W: People romanticize the monarchy, and the time of the former Zahir Shah. But we need to remember that this dynasty was in power from 1747 until 1973. They're responsible for the conditions that led to all these convulsions, revolutions, coup d'etats and counter coup d'etats, civil and sectarian wars. Because this dynasty did little to develop the country. This is a big country with a small population and very rich in resources, but it is one of the poorest and least developed countries in the world. People somehow just made a living off their land and animals and trade; it's a country where 85% rely on agriculture. But now due to this fourth year of massive drought, land and water are very scarce and so people are suffering. What sticks in my mind right now are the nomadic people chasing water and pastures for their animals. They're on the move all the time. These were people who had very comfortable and secure lives, even though they were nomadic; they had countless animals-goats, sheep and camels---they were healthy, they ate well because they had pastures and they moved, they stayed here and then they moved on. Now it is very hard to find drinking water or food for your animals. Some people now sell drinking water in the countryside. So you see those nomadic people traveling in hot weather, with their animals, their kids, their women, everything on their back. It's a horrible sight to see people displaced, a way of life threatened and people existing in such poverty, pain and anguish..

OS: You still have family there.

W: Yes. One of my sisters and her family lives in Kabul; she has been in Kabul all along. And then we have part of our family in the village which is about 180 miles southwest of Kabul. I visited them and even with all the help, it is very difficult for people to live comfortably. Even if they're receiving help from abroad. Things have become very expensive; the land is not as productive; there is very little water; everything has been marketized. People don't help each other anymore. Social Darwinism less communalism. This is the thing that I saw that showed the damage done to the culture, the spirit, the character of the people. It has become a different place. It is not as communal. Everything is commodified and marketized. Mutual help, trust, loyalty, friendship, family, honor, dignity and honesty--a lot of these things are becoming weakened and disappearing.

OS: Due, on the one hand, to poverty?

W: Yes, survival of the self, war, mobility, drought and poverty. It's very sad and painful to see this. It's hardly recognizable in terms of culture. You can rebuild the bridges, schools and hospitals but how do you reconstitute a way of life which is perhaps gone forever?

OS: What constitutes a common Afghan culture?

W: Islam, nationhood, the notion that you're an Afghan and the code of "Pashtoonwali." It was very poignant during this loya jirga to see or hear people saying, "I see that you have the same kind of problems even though we have been enemies and fighting each other. But we all have the same kind of problems. You have warlords, we have warlords. You don't have water or food, we don't either. You're being persecuted, we were being persecuted." I think religion is a main factor and the idea of patriotism, history, nationhood, being an Afghan, the stubbornness and pride of being an Afghan, other common bonds. People's lives are very wretched, but they are very proud of being Afghans.

OS: And that is true whether they are Pashtuns, Tajiks or anything else?

W: Yes, and that is why you don't even talk about subdividing the country. No one would want to do that, no matter which side of the equation. They want to stay together and continue fighting! Some have proposed dividing the country along the Hindu Kush mountains, north and south, Pashtun and non-Pashtun, but no one wants to discuss that. This is one indivisible country, it's Afghanistan, we're all Afghans even though we are different or fight. All Afghans are very proud of defeating the British and the Russians, their Ghaznawid renaissance and their conquests of southern Asia.

OS: And it's been that way for a very long time. I'm thinking of the colonial period when Afghanistan resisted direct rule by the British and Russians.

W: I think the people, the country, the culture are quite xenophobic and protective of their culture. Which is to say, "our ways," our Pashtooni way, our something. There's a lot of commentary on the dress of the foreigners--men and women. Foreigners should dress appropriately and not offend Afghan religion, customs, honor, dignity and pride. Even the more urban, urbane and cosmopolitan Afghans feel this way.